Problem Installing Classic Mac OS with OS X
10.4.6
D. William Denish writes:
re: Heads-up regarding problems installing Classic OS 9.2 on a
hard drive with Tiger OS X 10.4.6
Hi Charles,
You may already be aware of the situation, but I've encountered
an annoying OS X 10.4.6 installation problem (actually
blind-sided by Apple) that I think you (and others) should be aware
of and might consider addressing online and elsewhere. The problem
involves installing Classic OS 9.2 on a drive with Tiger already
installed. Apple Tech knows about the problem, but it is throwing
Apple users to the "wolves" with its kludged go-around.
I have a G4 dual 867 MHz Mirrored
Drive Door machine (dual-boot system) with four internal hard
drives, 2 GB memory, SuperDrive, Combo drive, ATI Radeon 9800
AGP card, and all four PCI slots filled (FireWire 800, USB 2.0,
SATA, SCSI). Originally, I had two internal ATA hard drives (one 60
GB Seagate and one 80 GB Maxtor), with both OS X 10.2.1 and
Classic 9.2 installed.
Two weeks ago, I installed a SATA PCI card along with two fast
SATA 250 GB Seagate hard drives. The intent was to eventually
duplicate the OSs and data from the slow 60 GB and 80 GB drives to
the fast new 250 GB SATA drives and then disconnect or remove the
two old smaller drives.
Here's the problem: I used Disk Utility to initialize both new
250 GB Seagate drives and then installed Tiger OS X 10.4.6 on
them. Then I took the four OS 9.2 Restore CDs that came with the G4
when I bought it almost four years ago and tried to install
Classic. It can't be done, because Tiger does not recognize the OS
9.2 Restore discs. The optical drives get confused and do not mount
the discs or keep asking me to place a disc in the optical drive
when there already is a disk loaded.
After talking to Apple Support, they admitted there is a problem
(actually "technical issue") and emailed me a few links with
information about the problem. One of the links mentions the
"optical confusion" problem. Of course, Apple Support was careful
never to use the word "problem," instead using terms like
"situation" and "issue." I've included the links below. For your
convenience, I've also included Apple's complete email response to
me.
Link: http://www.info.apple.com/kbnum/n301468
As Apple mentioned, I downloaded Apple's special Restore
program, in dmg format, and tried using it; but to no avail, it
also did not recognize the Restore disks.
This leaves only one option for installing Classic OS 9.2 under
Tiger: I must reinitialize the two new 250 GB drives, then install
OS X 10.2, then install OS 9.2 Classic from the original
Restore disks, and finally, install Tiger 10.4.6 over the top of
all of that. That results in an enormous loss of my time and a big
inconvenience, since I lose everything already loaded on the two
new hard drives. And nowhere in the documentation that is included
with Tiger is this regression (a.k.a. problem) mentioned.
I'm sure that Apple could have eliminated the kludged
installation procedures during development of Tiger, but it chose
not to do so to send a subliminal message to Classic users that
Apple wants to end support of Classic.
As such, you might consider alerting Mac users of the potential
problem and the poor options.
Here's another serious problem I encountered while installing
Tiger: The file directory format has fundamentally changed with
Tiger, so don't ever run an old copy of Norton Utilities Disk
Doctor - or similar utility - because it will clobber a drive's
directories and B-file strings to the point that the drive will not
be recognized or mount on the desktop. [Editor's note: See Norton Utilities Warning from 2002 for
problems caused by Norton under the Classic Mac OS.] I know, it
happened to me. I had to buy and download DiskWarrior v4.0 to bail
me out to fix the problems with my original 60 GB hard drive, which
I use as my "master" boot drive. In fact, I lost two days of work
because of it.
Let me say that the gang at DiskWarrior were kind enough to
accommodate me, and the DiskWarrior program is a godsend and should
be in every Mac users utility library.
If you need additional information, just email me and I will
help as best I can.
Kind regards,
D. William Denish
Mac OS X 10.4: Restoring applications from a Mac
OS X 10.2 Software Restore disc
Hello from Apple!
Gahena at Apple Service & Support thought that
you might find this article useful. We hope that it helps resolve
your technical issue.
Link: http://www.info.apple.com/kbnum/n301468
Mac OS X 10.4: Restoring applications from a Mac
OS X 10.2 Software Restore disc
If you installed Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger on your
computer, Software Restore cannot restore applications such as
iMovie, iPhoto, or Classic Support from a Mac OS X 10.2 Restore
disc. This document applies to Mac OS X 10.4 or later and Restore
discs for Mac OS X versions 10.2 through 10.2.7 (the Restore disc
that may have come with your computer).
Instead, Software Restore prompts you to insert
the Restore disc, even though that's what is already in there. So
how can you reinstall the software? Here are some ways. Restore
iLife applications from an iLife disc
You might consider purchasing iLife '05, which
comes with a CD and DVD disc in its retail package, to reinstall
iLife applications (iMovie HD, iPhoto, iTunes, GarageBand, and iDVD
- for computers that can burn DVDs). Tip: You can also download
iTunes from here. I don't have iLife, or I want to reinstall
Classic Support or other applications
This workaround allows you to reinstall
applications from the Mac OS X 10.2 Restore disc, but involves
first erasing your Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger volume and then reinstalling
Tiger later. Follow these steps carefully:
- 1. Back up important documents and files, including things on
your desktop. For instructions, see this document and this one too.
If you have other user accounts on your computer, don't forget to
back up important documents from those Home folders too.
- Start up your computer from your Mac OS X 10.2 Install (not
Restore) disc.
- Perform an erase and install on the Mac OS X 10.4 volume. This
erases Mac OS X 10.4 and reinstalls Mac OS X 10.2. See the "How to
Perform an Erase and Restore" section of this document.
- After it's finished, use the Mac OS X 10.2 Restore disc to
reinstall any applications you wish, or Mac OS 9 Classic Support,
if you want it.
- After you're sure that you've installed everything that you
need, start up your computer from your Mac OS X 10.4 Install
disc.
- Install Mac OS X 10.4 to upgrade the Mac OS X 10.2 volume.
Important: Do not perform an erase install or Archive and Install
installation.
- After Tiger is installed, use Software Update to install any
updates. Applications that you installed from your Mac OS X 10.2
Restore disc will most likely need to be updated.
- Restore any important files you backed up in step 1.
Download a later version of Software Restore for
Tiger
If you have Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger already installed
and you want to restore your Mac OS X 10.2.x computer-specific
software, you can use the version of Software Restore available
below.
Hi William,
I agree that Apple is anxious to kill of Classic Mode support,
which they have done by default for newer machines with the Intel
transition.
At least there is still the kludgy workaround prescribed by
Apple, but Classic is less and less viable on newer machines,
especially when post-Classic era hardware like SATA drives enter
the picture.
DiskWarrior is definitely the way to go for disk maintenance and
repair. Norton Utilities is better consigned to the dumpster for
system versions released since Symantec terminated support for the
software, and I've never used it for OS X.
Charles
Failed Tiger Upgrade via FireWire
From Nathaniel Zilske
Hi there,
I tried your OS upgrade, and when I tried to start my iBook, I
got the blinking question mark/folder. I haven't upgraded the
memory to 256 MB yet; is this the reason? '
Or can I not use this method for my old iBook(2 USB, 10g hard
drive running 9.1)? If you have any suggestions, please let me
know. Thank you already.
Nathaniel Zilske
Hi Nathaniel,
Even 256 MB is not enough RAM for decent
performance with OS X. You have less than that installed? RAM
may or may not be the issue.
Your iBook will support Tiger if it has FireWire
support built in, but IMHO you need at least 384 MB of RAM for
halfway satisfactory performance running OS X.
The procedure of using Target Disk Mode to install
Tiger is not supported by Apple, but it worked for me, and I have
had no problems.
Which machine are you attempting to boot the
installer disk from? When I did it with my Pismo PowerBook and G3
iBook, I booted from the Pismo, and it worked, but it has
subsequently come to my attention that the better method is to boot
from the machine you want to install Tiger on and mount the DVD
drive on the other Mac via Target Disk Mode. Worth a shot if you
haven't tried it that way unless....
You didn't say what you were using for an
installer disk. If it's a software restore disk that came with
another Mac, then that is likely your problem. Apple puts software
blocks in system install disks that ship with new Macs so that they
can (usually) only be used with the model they were purchased
with.
You need a generic OS X 10.4 install DVD (or a set
of 10.4 install CDs ) in order to install Tiger on your iBook (but
get some RAM first).
Charles
OS 9 - Is It the Browsers or the Plugins?
From Ruffin Bailey in response to The Web Is Leaving OS 9 Behind.
"These days I find Netscape 7 or Mozilla 1.3 the most capable OS
9 browsers, but there is really no truly satisfactory solution, and
the lack of compatibility will only get worse and browser
technology marches on, leaving OS 9 behind."
Is it really the browser, or is it becoming increasingly the
plugins? The Mozilla, iCab, IE chimera seems to do fairly well for
me, but when the site's heavy on newly crafted Flash, as an
example, well, there's not much you can do.
If it is truly the browser, using Yellow Dog
Linux plus Mac On
Linux might be a creative option, depending very heavily
on each individual's hardware. If you've got the juice to run a
relatively recent Linux distro, you could grab updated versions of
Firefox and/or Konqueror, Safari's father, and use those within
Linux to supplement your Classic Mac bias.
Ruffin Bailey
Hi Ruffin,
For me at least it's not plugins. I don't use any
that don't install with the browser by default.
Linux could be an option for someone so inclined,
but I've installed a couple of Linux distros on Macs (some time
ago) and never could really see the point, at least for my
purposes. The main reason I use a Mac is for the Mac OS.
OS X is the ideal solution for me, as there is a
wonderful selection of browsers. However, we are still running
OS 9 on the old WallStreet PowerBook, using Netscape 7 mostly
as a browser.
Charles
Mac IIfx Is World's Fastest Mac
From Otto Schlosser
Hi, Charles.
I read the article on the world's fastest Mac a few days ago. It
was enjoyable, but my reaction is, "If you think that 8600's fast, try a Mac IIfx with a fast hard disk and 64 MB of
RAM running System 6.0." Boot time is around seven seconds from
cold and the response is amazing.
Thanks as always,
Otto
Hi Otto,
Ah yes, the "wicked fast" Mac IIfx. A Mac I wish I
had owned back in the day. I love System 6. It's lively even on my
old 8 MHz 68000 Mac Plus with 2.5
MB of RAM. I (seriously) wish there was and optional System 6 type
minimalist UI "skin" for OS X.
Charles
Re: World's Fastest Mac
From Otto Schlosser
When I arrived at Apple in 1996, one of the most amazing things
I stumbled across was a IIfx that someone had simply abandoned. I
eventually resurrected it and gave it to my dad, who used it in his
office until it was replaced by a Rev
2 iMac.
I resisted the transition to System 7 for years, because System
6 was so lean and solid. I finally had the choice made for me when
I bought a Performa 6400 that would not boot 6.
"I (seriously) wish there was and optional System 6 type
minimalist UI 'skin' for OS X"
Great idea. I know support for themes is still deeply rooted in
Mac OS and that You Know Who abominates the very notion, so we are
unlikely to see it unless someone like Arlo Rose delivers.
ojs
Mac IIci with RAM Disk Is Fastest Mac
From Anonymous
Dear Mr. Moore,
I saw the Low End Mac article, and I thought you'd like to hear
my fastest Mac experience ever. One day someone brought into our
user group computer clinic a Mac IIci
with a 20 MB hard drive and 32 MB of RAM.
That's right, it had more physical chip memory than hard disk
space.
The result was a machine that booted in one second flat!
Everything flew because it was running in RAM, not on the hard
disk. When flash memory gets cheaper than hard disks, we'll see
that everywhere!
Sincerely,
Anonymous
Hi Anonymous,
Cool!
I used to run my PowerBook 5300 off a RAM disk most of the
time before we got the Internet here, so I have an inkling of what
you're talking about. My old PowerBook WallStreet would also boot
from a RAM disk.
Intel's forthcoming "Robson" CPU promises to give
us some flash RAM performance in a future generation of MacBook
Pros. See:
http://apcmag.com/4867/apple_says_no_to_flash_enhanced_hybrid_hard_drives
Charles
Simulating a Flash Drive on a PowerBook
5300
From David Lye
Hello Charles,
I tried to read your recent comments on this subject, but was
unable to - many of the Low End Mac web pages seemingly fail to
scroll down fully when I view them on a PC.
I sometimes use a Mac at work for a code called PIANO (by
Lissys) and still have an old 5300ce that still works, I can
connect it to other old Macs with AppleTalk. I don't use the 5300
much anymore, I have slightly newer Macs now (with USB)
USB is reported to be completely impossible on a 5300, but what
about this concept ?
- Use a 16-bit PCMCIA card that accepts a Compact Flash card in
the 5300.
- In any other machine, Mac or Windows or Unix, use a USB card
reader that can read a Compact Flash card.
- To move files to/from the 5300, simply move the Compact Flash
card around like a USB memory stick.
Is this feasible do you think ?
This would (if it works) achieve the functionality of a USB
memory stick, to move files to & from the 5300 in a way that
should be convenient in many circumstances (without any network
hassle). I realise that it would not provide 'true' USB
functionality for any other USB devices, it would just be a
'pseudo' USB flash memory stick
If you think it should be feasible, I guess the next problem is
to find some appropriate 16-bit PCMCIA card that would do the job,
I guess they are not made anymore? If you have any specific
suggestions I would be interested, it might be worth a small
investment on my part, just for the heck of it. Compact Flash is no
problem to find, and the same goes for a USB card reader
Regards,
David Lye
Hi David,
I can't say for certain, but I can't think of any
reason why your idea wouldn't work. As you suggest, the sticking
point would likely be finding The 16-bit PCA card adapter.
I don't know if any of the cards on these pages
would be helpful or not:
The USB card reader seems to need 32 bit CardBus
support.
Charles
Word 5.1 Docs in the Modern World
From Eric Hilgart
Hey there!
I know you said you are loathe to open your Word 5.1 documents
in MS Word for OS X - I am assuming you just don't want to use
the Microsoft product. Have you tried checking the formatting in
OpenOffice.org, or better
yet: Pages? I know
that I have had some really good luck opening MS Word documents in
Pages.
Just a thought so that maybe your "All OS X Migration" can
finally become complete!
Eric
Hi Eric,
I haven't tried OpenOffice, although I'm doubtful
that it would support Word 5.1 document formatting.
Happily, Tex-Edit Plus can easily access the
text in Word 5.1 docs, although without the formatting or any
graphics, so I won't be completely locked out of my Word 5.1 files
when I finally move to a Macintel.
For now, Word 5.1 still works great in Classic
Mode, starts up almost instantly - a lot faster than it did when I
first purchased it back in 1993 for my Mac Plus!
Charles
Mix-and-Match PowerBook Power Supplies
From Andrew Nagy regrding Yo-yo
Power Supply Advice:
Some guy wrote: "If you can find a power-brick from the PowerBook 1400, this can be used as an
alternate or backup power supply for all of the black PowerBooks."
Did he mean to say that it worked for clamshell iBooks also?
This guy seems to think so at least, claiming that adapters are
interchangeable between 3400s, 1400s, clamshell iBooks, and all G3
PowerBooks.
Also, before replacing my bad adapter I'd like to hear your
opinion on whether it's possible to repair it or to replace just
the tip that plugs into the computer. The problem seems to be
around there, and not in the yo-yo.
Hi Andrew,
Yes, a PowerBook 1400 power adapter should work
just fine with a clamshell iBook. In fact, even a PowerBook 5300
adapter will work if you take the trouble to splice one of the
coaxial connector plugs from a later type adapter on. I have done
this with complete success.
The claim of interchangability among the various
adapters that shipped with 'Books from the 3400c to the Pismo is
accurate. You can mix and match.
And yes, if the only problem with your yoyo
adapter is the connector plug, it is certainly possible to splice a
replacement on if you can find one. Coax splicing is a bit tricky,
but definitely doable. Make sure the inner wire is well insulated
from the outer braid.
Charles
Xubuntu Great on Older Macs
From Britt Dodd
Hello, my name is Britton. I am a very involved Macintosh user
and own several (ten on last count) computers, most of them being
Macs. I needed some PCs for high-end video editing, but use Macs
most of the time.
Anyway, I was reading your article on Ubuntu, and while I
completly agree that Ubuntu is out of the question, I have
had very good success using Kubuntu as an alternative to
OS X. I own and use an iBook
clamshell, running at the maxed out 384 MB RAM level, and have
tried both Ubuntu and Xubuntu, which is based upon the lightweight
and "lean" XFCE window manager, instead of the GNOME and KDE
managers found in Ubuntu and Kubuntu respectively. In fact, at
least in my personal experince on my iBook, Xubuntu required less
configuration upon the install.
I love the Mac OS and use 8.6 and 7.6.1 daily, but sometimes
tasks require the OS to be up to date, such as the constantly
changing world of the Unix/Linux community.
Also I would like to inquire about possibly getting together
with somebody on converting some browser to work with System 7 or
any other Mac OS version. I would be extremely intrested in helping
to develop some good browser for use with the Classic MacOS.
Thank you,
Britton Dodd
Hi Britton,
Thanks for the report, and there is a serious need
for an up-to-date Mac OS Classic browser, among folks who still use
the old OS. Whether there are enough to justify the effort is the
question. Perhaps you could contact the iCab folks, who have the
closest thing to a contemporary Classic browser.
Charles
Kudos on Handling of 'Other Red'
From Bert Altenburg on the "Other Red"
controversy:
Dear Mr. Moore,
I think you handled the issue (if any) regarding Mr. Campbell in
the way it should have been.
I also think that it is the only way to keep at least some of
the former fellons, who will undoubtedly meet lots of prejudice if
they're trying to pick up a regular life, from turning back into
the wrong direction.
Kudos.
Yours sincerely,
Bert Altenburg
(from the Netherlands)
Hi Mr. Altenburg,
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
Charles
Go to Charles Moore's Mailbag index.
